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	<title>Comments on: More play with Alchemy : Lookup table effects.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://unitzeroone.com/blog/2009/04/06/more-play-with-alchemy-lookup-table-effects/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://unitzeroone.com/blog/2009/04/06/more-play-with-alchemy-lookup-table-effects/</link>
	<description>by Ralph Hauwert, Creative Developer, Consultant</description>
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		<title>By: More alchemy stuff &#38; a surprise AS3 implementation &#171; sudpaw</title>
		<link>http://unitzeroone.com/blog/2009/04/06/more-play-with-alchemy-lookup-table-effects/#comment-664</link>
		<dc:creator>More alchemy stuff &#38; a surprise AS3 implementation &#171; sudpaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:14:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.unitzeroone.com/blog/?p=212#comment-664</guid>
		<description>[...] &gt;Ralph Hauwert has a new post with even more alchemy examples and godies. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &gt;Ralph Hauwert has a new post with even more alchemy examples and godies. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: AlexG</title>
		<link>http://unitzeroone.com/blog/2009/04/06/more-play-with-alchemy-lookup-table-effects/#comment-663</link>
		<dc:creator>AlexG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:44:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.unitzeroone.com/blog/?p=212#comment-663</guid>
		<description>I also do visual experiments but without Alchemy
http://alexgblog.com/?p=356</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also do visual experiments but without Alchemy<br />
<a href="http://alexgblog.com/?p=356" rel="nofollow">http://alexgblog.com/?p=356</a></p>
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		<title>By: Adobe Alchemy 资料整理 &#171; 国士无双</title>
		<link>http://unitzeroone.com/blog/2009/04/06/more-play-with-alchemy-lookup-table-effects/#comment-662</link>
		<dc:creator>Adobe Alchemy 资料整理 &#171; 国士无双</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jan 2010 06:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.unitzeroone.com/blog/?p=212#comment-662</guid>
		<description>[...] 10, Massive amounts of 3D particles with Alchemy More play with Alchemy: Lookup table effects Another scream on Flash, Alchemy Memory and compilers Alchemy plasma experiment [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 10, Massive amounts of 3D particles with Alchemy More play with Alchemy: Lookup table effects Another scream on Flash, Alchemy Memory and compilers Alchemy plasma experiment [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Flash 10, Massive amounts of 3D particles with Alchemy (source included). - unitzeroone(beta)</title>
		<link>http://unitzeroone.com/blog/2009/04/06/more-play-with-alchemy-lookup-table-effects/#comment-661</link>
		<dc:creator>Flash 10, Massive amounts of 3D particles with Alchemy (source included). - unitzeroone(beta)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 22:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.unitzeroone.com/blog/?p=212#comment-661</guid>
		<description>[...] More play with Alchemy : Lookup table effects.  After the overwhelming response of posting the sources of&#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] More play with Alchemy : Lookup table effects.  After the overwhelming response of posting the sources of&#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Yagiz</title>
		<link>http://unitzeroone.com/blog/2009/04/06/more-play-with-alchemy-lookup-table-effects/#comment-660</link>
		<dc:creator>Yagiz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:23:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.unitzeroone.com/blog/?p=212#comment-660</guid>
		<description>Some experiment about showing 500.000, 400.000 and 300.000 particles: http://www.yagizgurgul.com/blog/2009/04/24/500000-particle/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some experiment about showing 500.000, 400.000 and 300.000 particles: <a href="http://www.yagizgurgul.com/blog/2009/04/24/500000-particle/" rel="nofollow">http://www.yagizgurgul.com/blog/2009/04/24/500000-particle/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Gabriele Farina</title>
		<link>http://unitzeroone.com/blog/2009/04/06/more-play-with-alchemy-lookup-table-effects/#comment-659</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabriele Farina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 05:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.unitzeroone.com/blog/?p=212#comment-659</guid>
		<description>Obviously threading support is the most important stuff ever! Not sure if it can be implemented easilly in the current VM, but the MUST add something soon!

About the rest, it is always a matter of personal taste: for instance operator overloading is not as important for me as it is to you, but probably more important might be to move AS to a real strongly typed language, so they can start working on all the optimizations/features that now cannot be added because of  dynamic types. +1 for generics too ;)

About LLVM well, it is a long story and and we might continue talking about that for days ... the most important thing is that Adobe should do something to improve the language. Silverlight 3.0 is approaching with many new features ... and they&#039;ll have C# 4.0 that REALLY rocks ..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously threading support is the most important stuff ever! Not sure if it can be implemented easilly in the current VM, but the MUST add something soon!</p>
<p>About the rest, it is always a matter of personal taste: for instance operator overloading is not as important for me as it is to you, but probably more important might be to move AS to a real strongly typed language, so they can start working on all the optimizations/features that now cannot be added because of  dynamic types. +1 for generics too <img src='http://unitzeroone.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>About LLVM well, it is a long story and and we might continue talking about that for days &#8230; the most important thing is that Adobe should do something to improve the language. Silverlight 3.0 is approaching with many new features &#8230; and they&#8217;ll have C# 4.0 that REALLY rocks ..</p>
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		<title>By: Gabriele Farina</title>
		<link>http://unitzeroone.com/blog/2009/04/06/more-play-with-alchemy-lookup-table-effects/#comment-658</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabriele Farina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 17:42:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.unitzeroone.com/blog/?p=212#comment-658</guid>
		<description>@Ralph

Yes, I&#039;m talking about the Gumbo one. Not sure if the improvements they did works for all the cases, but the compiler seems to have been improved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ralph</p>
<p>Yes, I&#8217;m talking about the Gumbo one. Not sure if the improvements they did works for all the cases, but the compiler seems to have been improved.</p>
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		<title>By: Joa Ebert</title>
		<link>http://unitzeroone.com/blog/2009/04/06/more-play-with-alchemy-lookup-table-effects/#comment-657</link>
		<dc:creator>Joa Ebert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:25:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.unitzeroone.com/blog/?p=212#comment-657</guid>
		<description>Oh, I completly forgot: The most important feature would be threading of course :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I completly forgot: The most important feature would be threading of course <img src='http://unitzeroone.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Joa Ebert</title>
		<link>http://unitzeroone.com/blog/2009/04/06/more-play-with-alchemy-lookup-table-effects/#comment-656</link>
		<dc:creator>Joa Ebert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:12:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.unitzeroone.com/blog/?p=212#comment-656</guid>
		<description>Gabriele: The ASC in the trunk looks pretty much the same. I stopped checking out branches and tags. So in that case I do not know about it (yet :)).

I still do not see the problems with using the LLVM although. It seems like you are thinking about something. I mean the use of SSA in the LLVM is not a problem at all. But maybe we are talking about two completely different aspects.

So far the good news is that the MIR has been replaced with Nanojit -- we just have to wait a little bit.

IMHO inlining methods is completely overrated. This is a job for the VM and works very well for Java or .NET languages since the JIT decides at runtime what to inline. But of course we need a JIT that is smart enough to do that for ActionScript.

More important than inlining is the (real) support of templates/generics like Vector. and method overloading. If I could prioritize any of those features I would go for

1) Method overloading
2) Template types
3) Operator overloading
4) More VM optimizations

C# has so many fabulous syntactical features. Working with ActionScript/Java feels like stone age when switching back.

By the way Ralph: I tried to implement your effect and I could not get up to the same speed. I it think it could be possible but that would require much more work. Anyways, it is no surprise. If everything runs in Alchemy and you do not have to thunk out: it is faster.
But if Nicolas would create a haXe version, using the Alchemy opcodes, his version would probably be faster -- which would not surprise me as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gabriele: The ASC in the trunk looks pretty much the same. I stopped checking out branches and tags. So in that case I do not know about it (yet <img src='http://unitzeroone.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> ).</p>
<p>I still do not see the problems with using the LLVM although. It seems like you are thinking about something. I mean the use of SSA in the LLVM is not a problem at all. But maybe we are talking about two completely different aspects.</p>
<p>So far the good news is that the MIR has been replaced with Nanojit &#8212; we just have to wait a little bit.</p>
<p>IMHO inlining methods is completely overrated. This is a job for the VM and works very well for Java or .NET languages since the JIT decides at runtime what to inline. But of course we need a JIT that is smart enough to do that for ActionScript.</p>
<p>More important than inlining is the (real) support of templates/generics like Vector. and method overloading. If I could prioritize any of those features I would go for</p>
<p>1) Method overloading<br />
2) Template types<br />
3) Operator overloading<br />
4) More VM optimizations</p>
<p>C# has so many fabulous syntactical features. Working with ActionScript/Java feels like stone age when switching back.</p>
<p>By the way Ralph: I tried to implement your effect and I could not get up to the same speed. I it think it could be possible but that would require much more work. Anyways, it is no surprise. If everything runs in Alchemy and you do not have to thunk out: it is faster.<br />
But if Nicolas would create a haXe version, using the Alchemy opcodes, his version would probably be faster &#8212; which would not surprise me as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Newman</title>
		<link>http://unitzeroone.com/blog/2009/04/06/more-play-with-alchemy-lookup-table-effects/#comment-655</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Newman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 22:56:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.unitzeroone.com/blog/?p=212#comment-655</guid>
		<description>It&#039;ll be interesting to see how Adobe responds to the need for more performance out of AS3 vs. the need to make it easier for those who just want to hack something to get it working (Javascript style).

I think the language can do both, with the right additional keywords, and perhaps some more compiler settings. Why not have lightening fast static method calls for types that don&#039;t need ES4 cruft (is anyone doing prototype inheritance at this point in AS3), but still have more dynamic access to timelines &quot;scripts&quot; which really should behave like scripts in that case (and maybe not fail to execute quite as easily).

AS3 seems to be standing in a place between the dynamic convenience of Javascript, and the strict performance of C, and can&#039;t seem to decide which way to go. I hope it goes both ways. I want the fancy new Javascript (well, ES4 like) features for when I want to script something (including an easier time checking if a property exists, and possibly even a different way to deal with errors - that doesn&#039;t halt future code on the timeline, maybe some runtime duck typing too), and the balls out performance benefits of C when I need it (maybe even static structural typing?). Can we have it both ways - or should AS3 become C, and we&#039;ll just use a Javascript-like language (compiled to ABC or whatever) for the timeline (with an API to access the AS3 classes)?

(that&#039;s all stream of thought, hopefully it makes sense)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;ll be interesting to see how Adobe responds to the need for more performance out of AS3 vs. the need to make it easier for those who just want to hack something to get it working (Javascript style).</p>
<p>I think the language can do both, with the right additional keywords, and perhaps some more compiler settings. Why not have lightening fast static method calls for types that don&#8217;t need ES4 cruft (is anyone doing prototype inheritance at this point in AS3), but still have more dynamic access to timelines &#8220;scripts&#8221; which really should behave like scripts in that case (and maybe not fail to execute quite as easily).</p>
<p>AS3 seems to be standing in a place between the dynamic convenience of Javascript, and the strict performance of C, and can&#8217;t seem to decide which way to go. I hope it goes both ways. I want the fancy new Javascript (well, ES4 like) features for when I want to script something (including an easier time checking if a property exists, and possibly even a different way to deal with errors &#8211; that doesn&#8217;t halt future code on the timeline, maybe some runtime duck typing too), and the balls out performance benefits of C when I need it (maybe even static structural typing?). Can we have it both ways &#8211; or should AS3 become C, and we&#8217;ll just use a Javascript-like language (compiled to ABC or whatever) for the timeline (with an API to access the AS3 classes)?</p>
<p>(that&#8217;s all stream of thought, hopefully it makes sense)</p>
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